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Talk:Alexander Luthor, Sr. (Earth-Three)
Edits What was wrong with "Identifying Earth-Two Superman as Kal-L and Earth-One Superman as Kal-El.", "Identifying Earth-Three Ultraman as Kal-Ul." and creating a "Hyperlink for Superman disambiguation page.". "This is talking about the Earth of Earth-Three's universe.": What was wrong with making that clear? This is true: "Mxyzptlk comes from an alternate dimension to Superman (Kal-El/Kal-L) but Ultraman comes from an alternate reality/universe to Superman.", What was wrong with making the distinction? "My problem is when world is used to mean universe or reality. A world is just a single planet within an entire universe. Not a universe itself.": What was wrong with making that distinction? Jdogno7 (talk) 23:47, May 26, 2014 (UTC) :* Clarifying and simplifying is not a problem. Butchering the sentences worse than they already are is. :* Bluntly, the terms "dimension", "reality", and "universe" have been used interchangeably. It's fine as is. :* Aside from your word choice preference, the use of world is fine here. :- Byfield (talk) 01:24, May 27, 2014 (UTC) :: I'm getting tired of seeing this pointless "debate" continue. Jdogno, your edits are pointless. I'm not sure you're getting that. You think you're improving the pages with your "superior" word choice, but it's usually meaningless, if not worse. When the admins revert it, you have to respect it or go to the talk page to make a point. When the admins shoot down your point, then you have to respect it. Edit warring only gets you in more trouble and makes it harder for people to take you seriously. --- Haroldrocks talk 01:42, May 27, 2014 (UTC) "Clarifying and simplifying is not a problem. Butchering the sentences worse than they already are is.": How was I butchering sentences worse? "Bluntly, the terms "dimension", "reality", and "universe" have been used interchangeably. It's fine as is.": Reality and Universe can be used interchangeably but Dimension has a different meaning. Dimension in science fiction or fantasy refers to another plane of existence e.g. 5th dimension, but should not refer to an alternate universe. That is what the terms alternate universe or alternate reality are for. * Aside from your word choice preference, the use of world is fine here.": What do you mean by this? "I'm getting tired of seeing this pointless "debate" continue. Jdogno, your edits are pointless.": From your point of view. "I'm not sure you're getting that.": No. I do not agree with that. "You think you're improving the pages with your "superior" word choice, but it's usually meaningless, if not worse.": Don't most people think they're improving something somehow? I never said my word choice was Superior! "...but it's usually meaningless, if not worse.": How so? "When the admins revert it, you have to respect it or go to the talk page to make a point.": Fair enough. Go to the talk page to make a point. "When the admins shoot down your point, then you have to respect it.": I will respect it if given a convincing explanation for why it is wrong. I will not respect: "We're in charge, we make the rules, we're always right about everything." "Edit warring only gets you in more trouble and makes it harder for people to take you seriously.": That is assuming the one doing so isn't giving some sort of rationale behind the edits made. Jdogno7 (talk) 03:31, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :::* Butchering: Off the hop? Taking what should be an aside or independent clause and, by removing a comma, creating a confusing run-on sentence. If you cannot see what you are doing, stop trying. :::* Dimension: Depending on the writer all three terms can and have been used to mean the same thing. And specifically with pre-''Crisis'' travel between Earths was revered to as "inter-dimensional travel" or "crossing the dimensional barrier". Sorry if you don't like it, but it is what it is. :::* World: With in the story "world" is referenced by the characters. The scope of the Luthors' plan is implied to be limited to Earth-Three. Assuming a more grandiose appellation of "world" is your problem that you need to come to terms with in a way other that editing the article. :::* Getting it: Given where this is going, that it is still going on at all, it is questionable if you are getting it. And if you are, it is coming across as though you are deliberately refusing to acknowledge it. :::* Admins and the baiting there of: Yes, the Admins are human and fallible. However, they are the ones that apply a level of consistency, both in the content and the running, of this wiki. This is not Wikipedia where you have greater recourse if you feel an Admin is being unreasonable. And even there the attitude you've copped with Tupka and Rab as well as your method of editing and treatment of other editors would have you on a two month block by now and possibly on your way to a topic ban. Here there is not a level or two beyond the Admin, they are where the buck stops. If you don't like it feel free to leave. :::* Edit Waring: Whether you are "right" - in actuality or just in your own mind - or not becomes irrelevant if you are edit warring. You are disrupting the page and engaging in aggressive, closed minded, and in many ways childish activity to get your own way, even in the face of being the only one that wants it. :::* Talk pages and other's posts: Don't edit them. Period. You don't like the signatures. Tough shit, they are what the other editor has chosen. You don't get to be a dick and change it. They typo, they get to catch it and fix it if they feel it is important. You don't get to play teacher. The only exception to this is if/when a bot or Admin does a sweep to fix links because a redirect has been eliminated. You do not have that responsibility or privileged. What you did by altering my post and Haroldrocks' speak of a degree of contempt and/or disdain and makes it hard to believe that you can and will work with others in a colaberative way. ::: - Byfield (talk) 11:01, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Proposed re-write First paragraph Fine as is, currently linked to John Wilkes Booth (Earth-Three) and Abraham Lincoln (Earth-Three). Suggesting adding a link to Earth-Three and changing the ref link over to the template C'''. - Byfield (talk) 00:42, May 29, 2014 (UTC) :I'd say "partially 'reversed' universe" is barely passable as an in-universe description. In fact, all of the information in that paragraph is irrelevant to this character (besides his being from Earth-Three), and ought to be on the Earth-Three page, if it isn't already. (Also, "Threen?") - '''Hatebunny (talk) 05:25, May 29, 2014 (UTC) ::Threen was a typo on my part (fixed it). And on second look I agree, this could be shortened to either "Alexander Luthor, Sr. was born on Earth-Three." or "Alexander Luthor, Sr. was a native of Earth-Three." and merged into the 2nd paragraph. I'd lean for the first one. - Byfield (talk) Second paragraph Suggested changes: ::Finding solace in deep scientific research and invention, Alexander created many notable and advanced devices which brought him public notice. But it was not until his native world became the target of his extra-dimensional counterparts, the Luthors of Earth-One and Earth-Two that he decided to openly fight as a champion for his world. Realizing that he could not win the day alone against such odds, He recruited the help of his counterparts' greatest enemies, the Supermen of Earth-One and Earth-Two. This simplifies some of the awkward spots. Using the character's first name avoids confusion with later mentions of "Luthor". Replacing "Earth-Three" with "world" is a more natural turn of phrase. Swapping around the Earth-One and Earth-Two references simplifies two very awkward clauses. It also works with the suggested linking to follow. - Byfield (talk) 00:42, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Well except with the swapping around the Earth-One and Earth-Two references, I don't think this is a bad direction for the article. Just saying, that there is no need to swap around the Earth-One and Earth-Two references. Jdogno7 (talk) 00:47, May 29, 2014 (UTC) ::Six of one, though items that are number are normally listed in numerical order. That said, it should be consistent for both the Luthors and the Supermen. - Byfield (talk) 00:51, May 29, 2014 (UTC) :Links: :* Earth-One after "Luthors" to Lex Luthor (Earth-One) :* Earth-Two after "Luthors" to Alexei Luthor (Earth-Two) :* Earth-One after "Supermen" to Kal-El (Earth-One) :* Earth-Two after "Supermen" to Kal-L (Earth-Two) :- Byfield (talk) 00:49, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Third paragraph Suggested changes: ::After bring the Supermen to Earth-Three, Alexander enlisted their aid to directly confront his villainous counterparts, who planed to use his world as a bas from which to destroy their own home worlds. They had recruited Ultraman to act as the muscle in their scheme. Since he was powered by kryptonite, he was easily able to overpowered his extra-dimensional counterparts. This spurred Alexander to don a suit of powered armor and confronted Ultraman. Using his advanced weaponry, he was able to defeat Ultraman by temporarily "de-phasing" him. This allowed the two Supermen to recover and defeat the already squabbling Alexei and Lex Luthor. ... explination and links to come. - Byfield (talk) 01:05, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Continuing the narrative from the previous paragraph. Simplifying the references to the Supermen and the extra-dimensional Luthors. Simplifying the awkward introduction of Ultraman and splitting the compound sentence in two. Also re-structured the second sentence for ease of reading. Removed unneeded asides - that's for the story synopsis. Links: "Utraman" to Kal-Ul (Earth-Three) and a straight link for "kryptonite". - Byfield (talk) 01:12, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Fourth and fifth paragraphs Suggested changes: ::With Alexei and Lex defeated, Alexander returned the two Supermen to their native dimensions and Ultraman to his prison. Inspired by the encounter, he decided on to remain an active and open heroic presence to his world. He later married Lois Lane and fathers a son with her. Separate paragraphs are not needed here. Nor is Lex's last name. Simplifying and cleaning up the old 5th paragraph. Links: * "Lois Lane" to Lois Lane (Earth-Three) * "son" to Alexander Luthor, Jr. (Earth-Three) - Byfield (talk) 01:22, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Sixth paragraph Suggested change: ::Over the intervening years Alexander would face and defeat Ultraman and the Crime Syndicate many times. This continued up until the Anti-Monitor's energy wave appeared and started to sweep through the Earth-Three universe. To halt the wave, he was forced to join forces with his enemies. Despite their combined power, they were unable to stop the advancing wall of anti-matter.2 Simplifying by removing unneeded words and phrases. Splitting the two clauses of the 1st sentence for clarity. Removing the in text ref to Crisis for a description of what it was from Alexander's POV. Splitting the clauses of the send sentence for the same reason. Dropping the bit that is only needed for the CSA history. Again, swap the ref link for C. Links: * "Crime Syndicate" to Crime Syndicate of America * "Anti-Monitor" to Anti-Monitor (Antimatter Universe) - Byfield (talk) 01:46, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Seventh paragraph Suggested change: ::Alexander and his wife were only able to save their son from the complete destruction of their reality by placing him in a capsule which would take him to Earth-One. Alexander, along with everyone else native to his universe, died in the Anti-Monitor's attack. The existence of Alexander Luthor, Earth-Three, and all of its denizens was ultimately erased from all history, save for in the memory of Alexander Luthor, Jr. Keeping the focus on Alexander, not Alex. Links: Earth-One - Byfield (talk) 01:46, May 29, 2014 (UTC)